Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] New GMC Forum Follow-on
| [GMCnet] New GMC Forum Follow-on [message #349627] |
Thu, 24 October 2019 20:30  |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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I've watched the discussions of a new location for our GMC info with
interest. And some dismay. I wasn't quite sure why I was so concerned
about the plan until I was writing the just-finished dissertation on Lou's
and my 4-day adventure. Then it struck me: The plan to categorize the
discussions under a set of topics is NOT something I like. I visit GMCNet
virtually every day -- have for over 20 years now. I DON'T generally come
here to seek specific information. Rather, I come to see what I can learn
new or have refreshed. Occasionally, I find someone in need of information
which I have and try to share that. I have NO interest in visiting an
index of topics which MIGHT have something of interest to me or contain
someone's plea for help. I certainly don't intend to split the two or
three topics I may discuss in a posting into several discrete ones and post
them to "appropriate" topics.
I guess to me the proposed over-organization of our information smacks of
the "instant gratification" syndrome: Folks want What they want. They
want it Right now. And they don't want to be Bothered with anything else.
Folks of my generation seem to be more content to accumulate bits and
pieces of information as they arrive (as on GMCNet), store them away (in
our heads or some other sort of searchable database), and try to apply some
conglomeration of them to whatever comes up. We DON'T generally expect to
search for a precise answer pre-packaged for us.
There is a BIG difference in those philosophies. I won't condemn either,
and may find, as my memory continues to fail, that I have to transition to
the "serve it to me with a spoon" philosophy. But, for now, I WON'T be
going -- neither to consume nor to contribute.
Ken Old Timer H.
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] New GMC Forum Follow-on [message #349632 is a reply to message #349630] |
Thu, 24 October 2019 21:22  |
GMC.LES
Messages: 505
Registered: April 2014
Karma: -2
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I happen to appreciate GMCnet for much the same reasons as kenH I primarily use the e-mail side and like the fact that all topics of discussion arrive to the same inbox. It encourages me to read a large majority of the messages, participating in the discussions I want. With the e-mail notification function over on the new forum, all the messages also come into my inbox, so I see them all and can participate in any discussion I wish. It provides most of the same benefits, but in a slightly different fashion.
The fact that many of our fine coaches are being sold to younger/newer owners, and these owners have little to no knowledge of the coach. they often seek answers to specific questions, but have great difficulty finding them here due to the exact conditions that Ken mentioned.
The new forum was created to help the younger crowd. The format supports them better because the topics are better structured and thus easier to search. that format unfortunately doesn’t lend well to social discussions that cover multiple topics. That is where this group will always excel.
One fact i think most here should consider is this. Eventually we all will be selling or handing down our coaches to a younger less knowledgeable owner. most of us will want that person to have good success, AND we will want our coaches to have good market value. We should consider how supporting online information growth and access can affect that future value of our coaches. It isn’t about competition, it is about future survival and support of a great vehicle.
Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza 26'
> On Oct 24, 2019, at 9:51 PM, Matt Colie via Gmclist wrote:
>
> Ken,
>
> I am with you for the most part.
>
> If this were restricted to topics, I might never read that topic and as such never see the suggestion or question. Immediate case in point. I just
> discovered a post in the "Sandbox" side of the forum. I had the time to look and see what it was, had I not, I would never had read and answered
> Bob's question. This forum is not so busy that it needs to divided.
>
> A beautiful case in point would be to try to read the RV Forum . It is divided into a stifling array of categories. The
> only way to find out what is happening is to poke the switch that says "read what is new" and even then, it is a crap shoot.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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| Re: [GMCnet] New GMC Forum Follow-on [message #349633 is a reply to message #349632] |
Thu, 24 October 2019 22:31 |
Bill Van Vlack
Messages: 419
Registered: September 2015
Location: Guemes Island, Washington
Karma: 14
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On the new forum, going to 'Home', then 'New Posts', then you don't have to search all of the sub-forums to see new (and varied) info. Leave it there when you browse away and it will act more or less like this one.
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid November 2015.
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| Re: [GMCnet] New GMC Forum Follow-on [message #349635 is a reply to message #349632] |
Thu, 24 October 2019 22:51 |
dsmithy
Messages: 210
Registered: July 2012
Location: Lincoln Nebraska
Karma: 0
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As mostly a lurker,
I participate entirely online (the digest version) and am so in-tune and supportive of Ken’s take on “newness.”
But then I read Les’ take on the future of our coaches, and those who will take them forward.
Having just passed 72, I don’t see selling my coach for maybe 5 years, with luck, maybe a decade. (My family didn’t get such a good a warranty)
Will there be a buyer? For a coach that has been such an integral part of some of the best times of our lives and a magic carpet now for 29 years?
By then I won’t need the money, I’ll want to share the joy.
It’s a complicated, thoughtful joy that requires an investment that’s only marginally related to the dollars involved.
I hope that I can find someone who values a journey, treasures discovery, and enjoys the wonders to be found around the next corner.
To complicate things, that person will be someone that can appreciate a purpose-built vehicle that is a brilliant compromise between competing needs, but which needs continuing care, sometimes of an esoteric nature given the era in which it was conceived. It will require a search for appropriate parts, compromise, and creativity in finding solutions. To be somewhat more harsh, it will require dedication, dollars and no small amount of trust if not courage to throw in one’s family and go exploring. I have no problem with it because I know my vehicle, and I know I’ve taken every step to make them safe.
But can I look for a buyer and find myself? Not likely.
So, I will be reluctantly monitoring both.
Ken, Ken, Matt, Rick, Larry, et.al., You are my heros and, occasionally, my saviors, but I will spread my attention and see what develops.
Doug (who is ever jealous of Rick’s insertions) Smith
Douglas & Virginia Smith
dsmithy18 at gmail
Lincoln Nebraska
’73 “Canyonlands” since ‘95: “Wanabizo”, Anishinabe Indian for “He gets lost driving” Yes, really.
Quadrabag/6 wheel disks/3;70 final/Paterson QuadraJet/Thorley’s/Sundry other
P&W PT6, no wait, that's the wish list...
> On Oct 24, 2019, at 9:22 PM, Les Burt via Gmclist wrote:
>
> I happen to appreciate GMCnet for much the same reasons as kenH I primarily use the e-mail side and like the fact that all topics of discussion arrive to the same inbox. It encourages me to read a large majority of the messages, participating in the discussions I want. With the e-mail notification function over on the new forum, all the messages also come into my inbox, so I see them all and can participate in any discussion I wish. It provides most of the same benefits, but in a slightly different fashion.
>
> The fact that many of our fine coaches are being sold to younger/newer owners, and these owners have little to no knowledge of the coach. they often seek answers to specific questions, but have great difficulty finding them here due to the exact conditions that Ken mentioned.
>
> The new forum was created to help the younger crowd. The format supports them better because the topics are better structured and thus easier to search. that format unfortunately doesn’t lend well to social discussions that cover multiple topics. That is where this group will always excel.
>
> One fact i think most here should consider is this. Eventually we all will be selling or handing down our coaches to a younger less knowledgeable owner. most of us will want that person to have good success, AND we will want our coaches to have good market value. We should consider how supporting online information growth and access can affect that future value of our coaches. It isn’t about competition, it is about future survival and support of a great vehicle.
>
>
>
> Les Burt
> Montreal
> '75 Eleganza 26'
>
>
>> On Oct 24, 2019, at 9:51 PM, Matt Colie via Gmclist wrote:
>>
>> Ken,
>>
>> I am with you for the most part.
>>
>> If this were restricted to topics, I might never read that topic and as such never see the suggestion or question. Immediate case in point. I just
>> discovered a post in the "Sandbox" side of the forum. I had the time to look and see what it was, had I not, I would never had read and answered
>> Bob's question. This forum is not so busy that it needs to divided.
>>
>> A beautiful case in point would be to try to read the RV Forum . It is divided into a stifling array of categories. The
>> only way to find out what is happening is to poke the switch that says "read what is new" and even then, it is a crap shoot.
>>
>> Matt
>> --
>> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
>> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
>> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
>> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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Douglas & Virginia Smith,
dsmithy18 at gmail,
Lincoln Nebraska,
’73 “Sequoia” since ‘95: "Wanabizo";
Quadrabag/6 wheel disks/3:70 final/Paterson QuadraJet/Thorley’s/Alloy wheels/Sundry other
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| Re: [GMCnet] New GMC Forum Follow-on [message #349639 is a reply to message #349627] |
Fri, 25 October 2019 06:04 |
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RF_Burns
Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada
Karma: 3
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I check out the new Forum the same way as Bill Van Vlack, by using the New Posts feature.
Click Forums, then click the "New Posts" button.
This shows me new posts across all categories since the last time I was there. Under that, it shows posts that have not been updated since I was last there so its in chronological order across all forums.
Its much more "mobile device" friendly so I can peruse it on my phone while wait for Paula.
At 61, I'm in the "codger" state of life, so I'm too old for the Facebook chatting yet that is where the younger owners are, so I go there. I like the new Forum's features and think it will attract young FB users who are writing serious questions and answers so I go there too, but I come here everyday to learn something new.
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
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| Re: [GMCnet] New GMC Forum Follow-on [message #349644 is a reply to message #349639] |
Fri, 25 October 2019 10:11 |
Christo
Messages: 109
Registered: April 2019
Location: Weymouth, MA
Karma: 0
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Sincere thanks to all for sharing your impressions about GMCMHforum. I am 56, have owned my coach for 6 months, and have become involved in the new forum while also finding FB and this forum to be valuable resources. Currently I'm moderating the Electronics & Connectivity sub-forum and I'm working with the Super Admin to test the concept of a private sub-forum for the GMC Nor'easters since we currently have no way to communicate/collaborate. A few thoughts:
- In addition to the New Posts button on the right side of the Forum list, there's also a "What's New" menu (with a few sub-menus if needed) at the top of the page. Try it!
- Can we stop making this about young vs. old and assuming how the other side thinks? The ability to easily add photos and video/audio to posts is, objectively, an extremely valuable thing. So are many of the other features like search, mobile browser compatibility, and fewer broken threads and replies with several levels of quoting that make quick scanning of messages difficult. Even the (intentionally minimized) sub-forum structure has utility; we can have moderators who specialize in a certain area or areas, and focused curation helps everyone.
- A good tool will offer several ways to accomplish things or to present different information views, all with the goal of providing easy access for a broad range of use cases. If you want to see all activity, great! If you want tools that help you focus on your areas of specialization, great! The less friction involved in attracting as many well-intentioned participants as possible to our shared experience, the better.
- I recognize that GMCMHforum is asking the GMCnet community to expend modest effort to learn something new, and that some won't see the value or be willing to make that effort. To those of you in that category, your wisdom will be sorely missed. I believe the new forum can be used in a comparable, equivalent-or-better manner than this forum for the most part. I think I speak for everyone involved with the new forum in saying that if there are specific issues, share them and we'll do our best to help.
The GMC Motorhome community is one of the best parts of owning one of these amazing machines. If we can improve it by embracing the evolution of technology while respecting the history and heritage, I'm in.
Christo Darsch
GMC Nor'easters
1977 Eleganza II - "The Komet"
3.50 Power Drive, Disc Brakes, Alcoas
Weymouth, MA
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| Re: [GMCnet] New GMC Forum Follow-on [message #349647 is a reply to message #349644] |
Fri, 25 October 2019 10:44 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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This conversation about list vs forum vs face book is but a window that
looks into the hearts and minds of different learning styles and to some
degree, personalities.
I have always sensed a rift between GMC owners from the left vs right
coast with the dividing line being flat land vs mountainous terrain. Then,
some of the flatlanders moved to Colorado. I presume to get away from
things like high humidity, tornadoes, insects, floods and other unpleasant
conditions associated with flat land. Kinda middle grounders. I have had
the wonderful privilege of meeting a good number of GMC travelers from the
flat lands as well as having them as guests in my home.
When we retraced old Route 66 in 2014, we had the distinct pleasure of
meeting many of GMC club members along the way. What a diverse bunch.
Rocket Scientists, Chemical Engineers, Airline Pilots, NASA Engineers who
helped design hardware for the lunar program, Electronic Genius types, and
the list goes on. What an amazing brain trust. Boggles my mind.
So, it isn't surprising, really to find different personalities with
different learning styles in groups like this one.
Busy guys have not much time for idle chit-chat like face book. The
topics wander too much for my preferences, too. The photo site is the place
to post pictures. Permanent record. For years to come.
Just my take. Your view is not wrong, just different than mine.
Jim Hupy
Salem,Oregon
On Fri, Oct 25, 2019, 8:14 AM Christo Darsch via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Sincere thanks to all for sharing your impressions about GMCMHforum. I am
> 56, have owned my coach for 6 months, and have become involved in the new
> forum while also finding FB and this forum to be valuable resources.
> Currently I'm moderating the Electronics & Connectivity sub-forum and I'm
> working
> with the Super Admin to test the concept of a private sub-forum for the
> GMC Nor'easters since we currently have no way to communicate/collaborate. A
> few thoughts:
>
> - In addition to the New Posts button on the right side of the Forum list,
> there's also a "What's New" menu (with a few sub-menus if needed) at the
> top of the page. Try it!
>
> - Can we stop making this about young vs. old and assuming how the other
> side thinks? The ability to easily add photos and video/audio to posts is,
> objectively, an extremely valuable thing. So are many of the other
> features like search, mobile browser compatibility, and fewer broken
> threads and
> replies with several levels of quoting that make quick scanning of
> messages difficult. Even the (intentionally minimized) sub-forum structure
> has
> utility; we can have moderators who specialize in a certain area or areas,
> and focused curation helps everyone.
>
> - A good tool will offer several ways to accomplish things or to present
> different information views, all with the goal of providing easy access for
> a
> broad range of use cases. If you want to see all activity, great! If you
> want tools that help you focus on your areas of specialization, great! The
> less friction involved in attracting as many well-intentioned participants
> as possible to our shared experience, the better.
>
> - I recognize that GMCMHforum is asking the GMCnet community to expend
> modest effort to learn something new, and that some won't see the value or
> be
> willing to make that effort. To those of you in that category, your
> wisdom will be sorely missed. I believe the new forum can be used in a
> comparable, equivalent-or-better manner than this forum for the most part.
> I think I speak for everyone involved with the new forum in saying that if
> there are specific issues, share them and we'll do our best to help.
>
> The GMC Motorhome community is one of the best parts of owning one of
> these amazing machines. If we can improve it by embracing the evolution of
> technology while respecting the history and heritage, I'm in.
> --
> Christo Darsch
> GMC Nor'easters
> 1977 Eleganza II - "Komet"
> 3.50 Power Drive, Disc Brakes, Alcoas
> Weymouth, MA
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] New GMC Forum Follow-on [message #349650 is a reply to message #349647] |
Fri, 25 October 2019 11:52 |
Christo
Messages: 109
Registered: April 2019
Location: Weymouth, MA
Karma: 0
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Thanks Jim. The brain trust boggles my mind, too! Even the "clashes of the titans" are good reading when conducted respectfully. As a songwriter friend of mine says, "it's all about the passion."
Yes, the photo site is a great resource with amazing history. For new contributions, though, it's a non-starter for me due to things like the 800 pixel width/400kb size limit and the lack of mobile and video support. As a busy guy myself, I'm not into having to go to my desktop PC and do a bunch of reformatting prior to sharing stuff.
My hope is that we can find a common path forward with folks like Billy (bdub).
Christo Darsch
GMC Nor'easters
1977 Eleganza II - "The Komet"
3.50 Power Drive, Disc Brakes, Alcoas
Weymouth, MA
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| Re: [GMCnet] New GMC Forum Follow-on [message #349651 is a reply to message #349648] |
Fri, 25 October 2019 12:24 |
Christo
Messages: 109
Registered: April 2019
Location: Weymouth, MA
Karma: 0
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That's great, Matt, feel free to reach out with any feedback or issues. Glad you took another look!
Christo Darsch
GMC Nor'easters
1977 Eleganza II - "The Komet"
3.50 Power Drive, Disc Brakes, Alcoas
Weymouth, MA
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| Re: [GMCnet] New GMC Forum Follow-on [message #349655 is a reply to message #349651] |
Fri, 25 October 2019 17:05 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Ditto. After reading about the "New Posts" option, and seeing Matt's
change of heart, I visited the Forum. I'm impressed. Both by the new
format and by the quality of work being reported there -- which makes me
feel like it's 21 years ago and my coach is gutted again. :-)
I still don't know all I need to about the site. And I haven't yet
reconciled my new interest in it with my long love affair with this GMCNet
of Patrick Flowers'. Even in my re-retired for 25 years status, I can't
devote time to both of them.
Ken H.
On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 1:25 PM Christo Darsch via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> That's great, Matt, feel free to reach out with any feedback or issues.
> Glad you took another look!
> --
> Christo Darsch
> GMC Nor'easters
> 1977 Eleganza II - "Komet"
> 3.50 Power Drive, Disc Brakes, Alcoas
> Weymouth, MA
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] New GMC Forum Follow-on [message #349658 is a reply to message #349655] |
Fri, 25 October 2019 17:29 |
Olly Schmidt
Messages: 1265
Registered: February 2014
Location: Germany and Scottsville, ...
Karma: 8
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Senior Member |
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I hope the new forum will not cause even more separation of information
in the GMC MotorHome world.
I love the original forum with the mail gateway, as I nearly exclusively
read it via that venue. Not being always connected, a mail system is
*the* best system to stay in the loop and being able to communicate.
I've been on various forums and the amount of information I receive via
reading the forums compared to the amount of information I receive via
mailing list is about 1:20 - and no, the "New Messages" button isn't
changing this either.
and no, even though I have been around computers since the end of the
70s I have quite a few years left before hitting the retirement age ;-)
--
Best regards
Peer Oliver Schmidt
PGP KeyID: 0x4196BF22
'76a 26' Eleganza II - Virginia, US
'73 23' Sequoia - Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
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Best regards
Olly Schmidt
PGP Key ID: 0x18a9 3a1f 4196 bf22
'76a Eleganza II, VA
'73 Sequoia, SH, Germany
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| Re: [GMCnet] New GMC Forum Follow-on [message #349660 is a reply to message #349655] |
Fri, 25 October 2019 17:40 |
Christo
Messages: 109
Registered: April 2019
Location: Weymouth, MA
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Very good sir, I respect your open-mindedness and candidness. Be sure to check out Mike Perez' (the founder of the new forum's) build thread. He's got a serious renovation going on, including putting together his own fuel injection system. The guy's a commercial airline pilot. Anyhow, yeah, two active forums is a bit of a challenge, but at least you can scan the new one efficiently now. Who knows, there may yet be a "silverback" migration!
Christo Darsch
GMC Nor'easters
1977 Eleganza II - "The Komet"
3.50 Power Drive, Disc Brakes, Alcoas
Weymouth, MA
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| Re: [GMCnet] New GMC Forum Follow-on [message #349662 is a reply to message #349627] |
Fri, 25 October 2019 18:25 |
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Richard RV
Messages: 631
Registered: July 2012
Location: Full-timer for 12 years, ...
Karma: -17
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Senior Member |
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Ken, thanks for revisiting the forum schism in a new thread. I'm heartened to see opinions and viewpoints being shared in such a thoughtful and respectful manner. We all deserve no less.
Richard
'77 Birchaven TZE...777;
'76 Palm Beach under construction;
‘76 Edgemont waiting its turn
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| Re: [GMCnet] New GMC Forum Follow-on [message #349664 is a reply to message #349655] |
Fri, 25 October 2019 20:15 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Ken H,
I exchanged a few off-net emails with Mike a while back with my concerns. One was the topic of sub-forums and the other was how to handle people that think that they have to have email interfaces. While using the "what's new", or what ever it is called, option for viewing would work. My big concern is how to handle email user input. If you built an email user interface, how would you separate their postings into the correct sub-topic on the new forum.
I appreciate what he is trying to do but without an email only user interface, you will be dropping one class of users and experience to accommodate a different class of users.
Other forums I belong to do not support email only users, but they do not have an embedded group of users and experience that they will lose. Without the input of email users like you, Rick, Bdub, and Emery they will lose a big chunk of the expertise that they wish / need to use.
If those issues get handled, then I will use it.
Let's see where he goes with this.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
[Updated on: Sat, 26 October 2019 03:15] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] New GMC Forum Follow-on [message #349668 is a reply to message #349664] |
Sat, 26 October 2019 05:46 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
I certainly agree with you. I'm VERY reluctant to abandon those who are
totally dependent on email. It's all I ever use, but by choice, not
necessity.
Since there are already a few very capable posters at the Forum, I'll
probably visit there from time to time, but I just can't abandon GMCNet
yet.
Maybe I'll drop Patrick a line to see what his take/plans are on all this.
Ken H.
On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 9:16 PM Ken Burton via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Ken H,
>
> I exchanged a few off-net emails with Mike a while back with my concerns.
> One was the topic of sub-forums and the other was how to handle people that
> think that they have to have email interfaces. While using the "what's
> new", or what ever it is called, option for viewing would work. My big
> concern
> is how to handle email user input. If you built an email user interface,
> how would you separate their postings into the correct sub-topic on the new
> forum.
>
> I appreciate what he is trying to do but without an email only user
> interface, you will be dropping one class of users and experience to
> accommodate a
> different class of users.
>
> Other forums I belong to do not support email only users, but they do not
> have an embedded group of users and experience that they will lose. Without
> the input of email users like you and Denny and Emory they will lose a big
> chunk of the expertise that they wish / need to use.
>
> If those issues get handled, then I will use it.
>
> Let's see where he goes with this.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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