Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Acceptable Coolant Temp
| Acceptable Coolant Temp [message #239277] |
Sun, 09 February 2014 09:54  |
Oldngray
Messages: 544
Registered: August 2009
Location: Punta Gorda Florida
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What is the optimum engine operating temp for a 455?
Is 180 too low and 210 too high? At what temp should I/We be concerned?
We have a 180 degree T Stat in our 455. I notice that flat land cruise @ 60- 65 mph, OAT 85-90, FD 3.70 the engine temp is 195 - 205.
Is this acceptable?
Richard MacDonald
Punta Gorda, Florida
Sold our TZE April 2015
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| Re: Acceptable Coolant Temp [message #239290 is a reply to message #239277] |
Sun, 09 February 2014 11:11  |
Otterwan
Messages: 946
Registered: July 2013
Location: Lynnwood (north of Seattl...
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| Oldngray wrote on Sun, 09 February 2014 07:54 |
What is the optimum engine operating temp for a 455?
Is 180 too low and 210 too high? At what temp should I/We be concerned?
We have a 180 degree T Stat in our 455. I notice that flat land cruise @ 60- 65 mph, OAT 85-90, FD 3.70 the engine temp is 195 - 205.
Is this acceptable?
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I would say that is well within the acceptable range, and depending on what you are using for a gauge, probably +/- 10 degrees of actual engine temperature.
1977 Birchaven, Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to us."
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| Re: Acceptable Coolant Temp [message #239312 is a reply to message #239290] |
Sun, 09 February 2014 15:47 |
mikethebike
Messages: 331
Registered: January 2014
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I run a 195 in ours. We drove back from Phoenix by way of the big ditch to Denver and across to St. Louis and on to SC with no worries on coolant. Transmission and oil was another subject. I'm installing Derale 15960 fin&plate design, fan cooled, fully shrouded units for transmission and oil.
What is OAT 85-90? Is your radiator fully shrouded? If not, it should be.
[Updated on: Sun, 09 February 2014 15:49] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Acceptable Coolant Temp [message #239322 is a reply to message #239316] |
Sun, 09 February 2014 17:39 |
mikethebike
Messages: 331
Registered: January 2014
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OEM gauge showing normal with proper amounts of fluid in overflow tank. Don't have an aftermarket gauge on the water, have S/W on oil and transmission.
I am much more concerned about the transmission fluid and engine oil. That is why I am spending close to $500.00 for the cooler kits, not including S/S braided lines, A/N fittings and misc. other stuff.
Do you have engine compartment vents? I have the S/S ones mounted just behind the fender liner. They work.
One other thing.....When I removed the grill and the KIA aux fan mounted on the A/C condenser I noticed the cooling fins are in very bad shape and I will comb them out as straight as I can before I install the coolers which are going in front of the radiator, I bent the side shrouds out until they lined up with the outer edges of the grill opening and plan to mount the coolers with about 60% overhang in front the radiator.
[Updated on: Sun, 09 February 2014 17:48] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Acceptable Coolant Temp [message #239360 is a reply to message #239277] |
Sun, 09 February 2014 22:41 |
Ken Burton
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Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
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I once blew a hole in my OEM radiator and ended up plugging two tubes to get going gain. I removed the thermostat and watched the temp over about 400 miles going to a GMCMI rally in Delaware.
It was an interesting experiment. Without a thermostat the engine was running around 180 on the flat and as high as 210 climbing east coast mountains.
Upon arriving at the rally in Delaware we removed the OEM radiator with the plugged tubes and installed an aluminum one. I drove home again without the thermostat. It was running around 140 on the flat lands and made it up to 195 climbing mountains in second gear. So now we know what the cooling system will do without the intervention of the thermostat.
At Dick Paterson's recommendation I installed a 180 degree thermostat. Now I run 180 + or - about 3 degrees all the time with a very rare climb to 195 in the summer while climbing the hills with the AC on. At around 205 to 215 the fan should kick in and start additional cooling but I haven't need it using the aluminum radiator.
Acceptable? Yes. But it could run cooler.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
[Updated on: Sun, 09 February 2014 23:07] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Acceptable Coolant Temp [message #239377 is a reply to message #239277] |
Mon, 10 February 2014 08:26 |
Chris Tyler
Messages: 458
Registered: September 2013
Location: Odessa FL
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Mine runs ~195 with a 185 Robert shaw T stat [per PO reciept] down the road.
In traffic it runs up to 220 when its hot out, prob due to the shroud having been removed to install an electric [Black Magic] fan.
Reinstalling that is a priority before summer. Looks like I may need to split it and install, then bridge it to avoid a lot of disassembly. Or maybe I should get one of the fiberglass split style and save this one intact.
Since it seems these coaches can't run very high pressures they won't tolerate the temps that more modern engines will, since higher pressures = higher boiling point. If you increase the coolant percentage, the boiling point goes up but it doesnt cool as well.
If the coolant begins to boil it creates a steam pocket and locally much higher temps, often leads to gasket failure or a crack. Another problem with higher temps is that it increases the tendency to detonation, particularly if under heavy load or if your timing is advanced.
On the plus side, higher temps usually produce higher MPG up to a point, from improved vaporization and less heat loss to the coolant. Lower emmissions too, which is why the OEMS have gone that route. Some of the normal temps on newer cars still scare me
I start to worry ~215 on an iron headed, non computerized carbed engine.
76 Glenbrook
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| Re: Acceptable Coolant Temp [message #239378 is a reply to message #239277] |
Mon, 10 February 2014 08:41 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
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We should all review and remember that the thermostat only controls how cold the engine runs. Open is open and has nothing to do with how hot the engine runs. Ability of cooling system to transfer heat controls that. Running a 195 gives less thermal cycling and assures water removal from oil on shorter trips. At 195 the Delta T to the OAT is greater so temp is more stable as the stat controls it better, that is the setpoint is closer to the system capacity point.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: Acceptable Coolant Temp [message #239380 is a reply to message #239377] |
Mon, 10 February 2014 09:01 |
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WD0AFQ
Messages: 7111
Registered: November 2004
Location: Dexter, Mo.
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| Chris Tyler wrote on Mon, 10 February 2014 08:26 |
Mine runs ~195 with a 185 Robert shaw T stat [per PO reciept] down the road.
In traffic it runs up to 220 when its hot out, prob due to the shroud having been removed to install an electric [Black Magic] fan.
Reinstalling that is a priority before summer. Looks like I may need to split it and install, then bridge it to avoid a lot of disassembly. Or maybe I should get one of the fiberglass split style and save this one
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A little off topic but the split shroud is one of the first things I installed. Emailed Fay Curtis, told her I needed it, she shipped, then went on a 2 week trip. Never even put an invoice in it. About a month later they sent me a bill. That was some kind of service from a vendor. Have had this same thing happen from other vendors. The Curtis s did not know me from the man on the moon.
I run a 180 degree therm in summer and a 195, or block the grille, in the winter.
Dan
3 In Stainless Exhaust Headers
One Ton All Discs/Reaction Arm
355 FD/Quad Bag/Alum Radiator Manny Tran/New eng.
Holley EFI/10 Tire Air Monitoring System
Solarized Coach/Upgraded Windows
Satelite TV/On Demand Hot Water/3Way Refer
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| Re: Acceptable Coolant Temp [message #239405 is a reply to message #239378] |
Mon, 10 February 2014 12:10 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
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| JohnL455 wrote on Mon, 10 February 2014 07:41 |
We should all review and remember that the thermostat only controls how cold the engine runs. Open is open and has nothing to do with how hot the engine runs. Ability of cooling system to transfer heat controls that. Running a 195 gives less thermal cycling and assures water removal from oil on shorter trips. At 195 the Delta T to the OAT is greater so temp is more stable as the stat controls it better, that is the setpoint is closer to the system capacity point.
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Interesting thought !
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: Acceptable Coolant Temp [message #239410 is a reply to message #239378] |
Mon, 10 February 2014 12:45 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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| JohnL455 wrote on Mon, 10 February 2014 08:41 |
We Running a 195 gives less thermal cycling and assures water removal from oil on shorter trips. At 195 the Delta T to the OAT is greater so temp is more stable as the stat controls it better, that is the set point is closer to the system capacity point.
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Since my ran 140 to 160 with n thermostat, using you theory I should run a 160 degree thermostat.
We are trying to keep the oil and trans fluid cooler. Both fluids, but especially the trans fluid, have a given life expectancy based on the operating temperatures it encounters. Cooler temperatures (within reason) means longer life of the lubricants.
My newer Chevrolet Colorado came with a 180 degree thermostat and a computer generated oil change interval of around 9,000 miles. My trans fluid change recommendation is 100,000 miles.
Why would GM do that if 195 gives better mileage and oil life?
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Acceptable Coolant Temp [message #239455 is a reply to message #239452] |
Mon, 10 February 2014 18:21 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
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Rob, used to run and repair VW air cooled busses. We would put monster
remote oil coolers on them when we hot rodded them. In the winter in
Oregon, the coolers worked too good. You could only go 2000 miles between
oil changes. White milky foam crud would form if you did not. Summer, no
problem. You could grab the dipstick and burn your fingers. Never did
develop a thermostatically controlled bypass for the coolers. My knees do
not miss working on those air cooled VWs.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC Royale 403
On Feb 10, 2014 4:07 PM, "Robert Mueller" <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> John,
>
> I wonder at what water temp does the oil temp go high enough to "boil" the
> water out of the oil?
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John R. Lebetski
>
> We should all review and remember that the thermostat only controls how
> cold the engine runs. Open is open and has nothing to do
> with how hot the engine runs. Ability of cooling system to transfer heat
> controls that. Running a 195 gives less thermal cycling
> and assures water removal from oil on shorter trips. At 195 the Delta T to
> the OAT is greater so temp is more stable as the stat
> controls it better, that is the setpoint is closer to the system capacity
> point.
> --
> John
>
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| Re: Acceptable Coolant Temp [message #239457 is a reply to message #239277] |
Mon, 10 February 2014 18:28 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
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Just because it settles at about 160, that has nothing to do with chosing a 160 stat. Basicly it's then just like s VW air cooled and runs X degrees above the ambient. The idea in a thermostaicly controlled system is to aim for an optimal target and keep it there for best parts clearances, mixture R/L etc Some will say run a cool stat so at the start of a long grade pull they will be starting at a lower temp. That may buy you a 1/8 mile before its up to to cooling system capacity to hold temp cilmb in check. Hardly an advantage on a long grade vs the increased thermal cycling. Then on the long down grade in 2nd with no throttle the temp will drop from 210 peak (for example) after the pull down to 160. 50 degree swing. With the 195 I only swing from 195 to 210 and back to 195. Much steadier at 15 degree swing. I'm supprised to hear of an OBDII truck running such a cold stat. Most modern cars run 195 or higher for emissions.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Acceptable Coolant Temp [message #239462 is a reply to message #239457] |
Mon, 10 February 2014 18:52 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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John, if the thermostat and baffles are properly installed in the VW, it will run at a fairly constant temperature. If, as many do, you leave them out, you'll buy problems. They're well thought out little engines with an incredible amount of 'headroom' built into them. The stock cooling system is sufficient in Alabama summers up to about 150% of the original output. I don't think you can harm a box stock 40 horse in a bug. It won't pass enough mixture to get it into trouble even floored in low gear for extended periods. We did outboard a cooler on one we machined up for Ed's in Montgomery years ago at the aviation engine shop but it was kind of strung out to the max. Dry sump, etc. etc. Screamer. The thing survived obscene RPM clutch dumps.
--johnny
________________________________
From: John R. Lebetski <gransport@aol.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Acceptable Coolant Temp
Just because it settles at about 160, that has nothing to do with chosing a 160 stat. Basicly it's then just like s VW air cooled and runs X degrees above the ambient. The idea in a thermostaicly controlled system is to aim for an optimal target and keep it there for best parts clearances, mixture R/L etc Some will say run a cool stat so at the start of a long grade pull they will be starting at a lower temp. That may buy you a 1/8 mile before its up to to cooling system capacity to hold temp cilmb in check. Hardly an advantage on a long grade vs the increased thermal cycling. Then on the long down grade in 2nd with no throttle the temp will drop from 210 peak (for example) after the pull down to 160. 50 degree swing. With the 195 I only swing from 195 to 210 and back to 195. Much steadier at 15 degree swing. I'm supprised to hear of an OBDII truck running such a cold stat. Most modern cars run 195 or higher for emissions.
--
John Lebetski
Chicago, IL
77 Eleganza II
Source America First
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Acceptable Coolant Temp [message #239464 is a reply to message #239452] |
Mon, 10 February 2014 19:11 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Rob, I have read that the oil coming off of the cylinder walls runs between 235 and 245 degrees. Moisture is separated at that point and then the oil returns to the pan to be mixed with what ever is there. I have a scan gauge on my Colorado and when the temps are below 0, like they were last week, the engine temperature was running 170 to 172 degrees. I have no moisture accumulation problem.
There was a guy last year on the Colorado forum from Barrow, AK that was seeing engine temps in the 155 to 165 range in the dead of winter. He was worried about it and GM responded that as long as he was not seeing moisture accumulation on the oil fill cap that he was OK. They also suggested a grill cover to block some of the air entering in the front because obviously the thermostat was not opening at all and the engine was being cooled by air flowing by it and use of the cabin heater. He did do that to bring the temp back to 180 so his cabin heater worked better. He also parked it inside or plugged it in when the weather went below -10 but that was more of a getting it started issue.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Acceptable Coolant Temp [message #239467 is a reply to message #239462] |
Mon, 10 February 2014 19:27 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Johnny, here in Oregon, we have these giant sand dunes on several locations
on the Pacific Coast. We use those dunes to play with our sand toys. Lots
of Quads, and what loosely fit the term Dune Buggys. Many of them are 2
seater tubular chassis straight front axle vehicles with VW aircooled
transaxles and about a jillion different engines adapted to the VW
transaxle. Still very popular is the air cooled VW and Porsche boxer
engines, and Subaru Water cooled. There are many of the VW engines that are
built up into a 250 - 300 hp package. High strung to be sure, and kinda
like a roman candle . Light them off and watch the fireworks, but short
lived. Still a lot of engine builders try to make one live in the sand. I
used to build a lot of them for others and always had plenty of repeat
business. Oil cooling was not a particular issue with them because they do
not run at sustained high power outputs for a long time. More like short
blasts. But the old VW busses used to hammer down the freeway with 6 or 8
longhairs on their way to a Grateful Dead concert somewhere with the stereo
turned up so far that they couldn't hear the engine knocking. We never left
the baffles out of those things, they wouldn't last 2 hours if you did. You
would be surprised what those Deadheads would like to use as legal
tender.(grin)
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Johnny Bridges <jhbridges@ymail.com> wrote:
> John, if the thermostat and baffles are properly installed in the VW, it
> will run at a fairly constant temperature. If, as many do, you leave them
> out, you'll buy problems. They're well thought out little engines with an
> incredible amount of 'headroom' built into them. The stock cooling system
> is sufficient in Alabama summers up to about 150% of the original output.
> I don't think you can harm a box stock 40 horse in a bug. It won't pass
> enough mixture to get it into trouble even floored in low gear for extended
> periods. We did outboard a cooler on one we machined up for Ed's in
> Montgomery years ago at the aviation engine shop but it was kind of strung
> out to the max. Dry sump, etc. etc. Screamer. The thing survived obscene
> RPM clutch dumps.
>
> --johnny
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: John R. Lebetski <gransport@aol.com>
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 7:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Acceptable Coolant Temp
>
>
>
>
> Just because it settles at about 160, that has nothing to do with chosing
> a 160 stat. Basicly it's then just like s VW air cooled and runs X degrees
> above the ambient. The idea in a thermostaicly controlled system is to aim
> for an optimal target and keep it there for best parts clearances, mixture
> R/L etc Some will say run a cool stat so at the start of a long grade
> pull they will be starting at a lower temp. That may buy you a 1/8 mile
> before its up to to cooling system capacity to hold temp cilmb in check.
> Hardly an advantage on a long grade vs the increased thermal cycling. Then
> on the long down grade in 2nd with no throttle the temp will drop from 210
> peak (for example) after the pull down to 160. 50 degree swing. With the
> 195 I only swing from 195 to 210 and back to 195. Much steadier at 15
> degree swing. I'm supprised to hear of an OBDII truck running such a cold
> stat. Most modern cars run 195 or higher for emissions.
> --
> John Lebetski
> Chicago, IL
> 77 Eleganza II
> Source America First
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Acceptable Coolant Temp [message #239469 is a reply to message #239464] |
Mon, 10 February 2014 19:53 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
I Tee'd a temp sensor into the oil line from the engine to the oil cooler in Double Trouble, I didn't get around to wiring it up. I
will do so this year when I'm back there and will report the readings I get. It will read the temperature of the oil in the pan.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Burton
Rob, I have read that the oil coming off of the cylinder walls runs between 235 and 245 degrees. Moisture is separated at that
point and then the oil returns to the pan to be mixed with what ever is there. I have a scan gauge on my Colorado and when the
temps are below 0, like they were last week, the engine temperature was running 170 to 172 degrees. I have no moisture accumulation
problem.
There was a guy last year on the Colorado forum from Barrow, AK that was seeing engine temps in the 155 to 165 range in the dead of
winter. He was worried about it and GM responded that as long as he was not seeing moisture accumulation on the oil fill cap that
he was OK. They also suggested a grill cover to block some of the air entering in the front because obviously the thermostat was
not opening at all and the engine was being cooled by air flowing by it and use of the cabin heater. He did do that to bring the
temp back to 180 so his cabin heater worked better. He also parked it inside or plugged it in when the weather went below -10 but
that was more of a getting it started issue.
--
Ken
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Acceptable Coolant Temp [message #239470 is a reply to message #239467] |
Mon, 10 February 2014 19:54 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Having been one - and having many many miles in a '62 Station Wagon and a '74 Kombi (A substantial number of which I don't remember) , I wouldn't be surprised at all. With the proper (limiter) rotor in, they won't hurt themselves. Without it, the reduction gears will let you spin them up further than they should. And, at 250 + - even 150+ yopu probably want a bigger oil cooler :)
--johnny
________________________________
From: James Hupy <jamesh1296@gmail.com>
To: "gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Acceptable Coolant Temp
Johnny, here in Oregon, we have these giant sand dunes on several locations
on the Pacific Coast. We use those dunes to play with our sand toys. Lots
of Quads, and what loosely fit the term Dune Buggys. Many of them are 2
seater tubular chassis straight front axle vehicles with VW aircooled
transaxles and about a jillion different engines adapted to the VW
transaxle. Still very popular is the air cooled VW and Porsche boxer
engines, and Subaru Water cooled. There are many of the VW engines that are
built up into a 250 - 300 hp package. High strung to be sure, and kinda
like a roman candle . Light them off and watch the fireworks, but short
lived. Still a lot of engine builders try to make one live in the sand. I
used to build a lot of them for others and always had plenty of repeat
business. Oil cooling was not a particular issue with them because they do
not run at sustained high power outputs for a long time. More like short
blasts. But the old VW busses used to hammer down the freeway with 6 or 8
longhairs on their way to a Grateful Dead concert somewhere with the stereo
turned up so far that they couldn't hear the engine knocking. We never left
the baffles out of those things, they wouldn't last 2 hours if you did. You
would be surprised what those Deadheads would like to use as legal
tender.(grin)
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Johnny Bridges <jhbridges@ymail.com> wrote:
> John, if the thermostat and baffles are properly installed in the VW, it
> will run at a fairly constant temperature. If, as many do, you leave them
> out, you'll buy problems. They're well thought out little engines with an
> incredible amount of 'headroom' built into them. The stock cooling system
> is sufficient in Alabama summers up to about 150% of the original output.
> I don't think you can harm a box stock 40 horse in a bug. It won't pass
> enough mixture to get it into trouble even floored in low gear for extended
> periods. We did outboard a cooler on one we machined up for Ed's in
> Montgomery years ago at the aviation engine shop but it was kind of strung
> out to the max. Dry sump, etc. etc. Screamer. The thing survived obscene
> RPM clutch dumps.
>
> --johnny
>
>
>
> ________________________________
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Acceptable Coolant Temp [message #239473 is a reply to message #239469] |
Mon, 10 February 2014 20:10 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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I think John has an interesting point here. I suspect if a GMC is going to overheat, the thermostat will make no difference other than a few feet up the hill. 180 or 190 is peanuts in the scheme of things, but I do think the idea of a stable system is a good one. However, we are probably arguing about something that is in the mud when you consider thermostat and gage variation. personally i would opt for the higher setting.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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