Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Used motor -- tips and suggestions (can not afford new.)
| Used motor -- tips and suggestions [message #238300] |
Fri, 31 January 2014 20:56  |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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I know I haven't been active here, much, lately.
Some of you may know my "user" coach has a dead motor (403)... just over 400 miles from home. To recap: The engine lost power and quit. Coasting to the side of the road I noticed steam from the exhaust. After letting it cool and refilling it, water came out the right muffler.
Due to "medical issues" I had to get the wife home so we left the coach at Gary Bovee's and got her home.
I thought I had just blown a head gasket. Think it COULD be a bit worse than just the gasket. so I collected a pair of rebuilt heads and a gasket set and returned for the coach. After pulling the heads, we found a hole burnt in the #7 piston. (left side). -- A bit worse... 
I can not afford a new motor. I COULD pull a motor from one of my other coaches (455), but that doubles the work as I'd have to replace that one. Plus more parts need to be changed due to 403/455 differences.
I found a Used 403 motor on craigslist. <http://salem.craigslist.org/pts/4295222600.html>
And I am going to look at it this weekend. I plan on doing a compression check. before deciding on making an offer.
I am looking for opinions, tips and suggestions on not only what to look for before buying, but on what things to do before installing it. (IF I buy it)
I am thinking of things like new water pump and timing chain.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Used motor -- tips and suggestions [message #238303 is a reply to message #238300] |
Fri, 31 January 2014 21:03  |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Mike, stop by on your way to look at it. It is only a few miles from me. I
did notice a "smog pump" on the engine, so it is not from a motor home for
sure. Perhaps we can go look together.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or.
On Jan 31, 2014 6:56 PM, "Mike Miller" <m000035@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I know I haven't been active here, much, lately.
>
> Some of you may know my "user" coach has a dead motor (403)... just over
> 400 miles from home. To recap: The engine lost power and quit. Coasting to
> the side of the road I noticed steam from the exhaust. After letting it
> cool and refilling it, water came out the right muffler.
>
> Due to "medical issues" I had to get the wife home so we left the coach at
> Gary Bovee's and got her home.
>
> I thought I had just blown a head gasket. Think it COULD be a bit worse
> than just the gasket. so I collected a pair of rebuilt heads and a gasket
> set and returned for the coach. After pulling the heads, we found a hole
> burnt in the #7 piston. (left side). -- A bit worse... :cry:
>
> I can not afford a new motor. I COULD pull a motor from one of my other
> coaches (455), but that doubles the work as I'd have to replace that one.
> Plus more parts need to be changed due to 403/455 differences.
>
> I found a Used 403 motor on craigslist. <
> http://salem.craigslist.org/pts/4295222600.html>
> And I am going to look at it this weekend. I plan on doing a compression
> check. before deciding on making an offer.
>
> I am looking for opinions, tips and suggestions on not only what to look
> for before buying, but on what things to do before installing it. (IF I buy
> it)
>
> I am thinking of things like new water pump and timing chain.
>
>
> --
> Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
> (#1)'73 26' exPainted D. -- (#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23'
> Birchaven Side Bath
> http://m000035.blogspot.com
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Used motor -- tips and suggestions [message #238323 is a reply to message #238303] |
Sat, 01 February 2014 00:15 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| James Hupy wrote on Fri, 31 January 2014 19:03 |
Mike, stop by on your way to look at it. It is only a few miles from me. I did notice a "smog pump" on the engine, so it is not from a motor home for sure. Perhaps we can go look together.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or.
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Thanks Jim.
Are a football fan? (I am not.) I'd forgotten at the time I set up my "visit" it was on Superbowl Sunday. I have not heard back from the seller on if this bothers him. If it does, I'll slide the date a week or so. It isn't like I do not have other things to do in the meanwhile!
As for the smog pump, I had planned on only using the short block from this motor. So almost everything bolted to the motor will not be used.. by me. I already have rebuilt heads, plus a set of good "core" heads, setting in the motorhome. From talking t the seller, it was in a larger '80's Olds, NOT a Cutlass. Being set up for rear wheel drive, it has the starter mounted to the block, so it should be possible to do a compression check before buying.
The same guy has a 350 olds diesel block listed in another ad. I understand they can be made into a bullet proof gasoline engine. ... hmmmm, JimB has a 350 powered GMC. Have to think about this. 
I'll call you tommorrow when I know a little more.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: Used motor -- tips and suggestions [message #238328 is a reply to message #238300] |
Sat, 01 February 2014 01:25 |
appie
Messages: 902
Registered: April 2013
Location: denmark
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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I hade a hole in the piston ( from a broken valve) of my Hanomag diesel while in Marokke once
Replaced the piston and valve in the campsite and drove a other 20000 km before I sold it
A cheap solution, and you do not have to remove the engine
Appie
eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold
6 wheel discbrake
Quadrabags
Springfield stage 2 462 olds
Manny tranny
( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html
Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016
Denmark
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| Re: [GMCnet] Used motor -- tips and suggestions [message #238346 is a reply to message #238338] |
Sat, 01 February 2014 08:34 |
Dennis S
Messages: 3046
Registered: November 2005
Karma: 2
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| Kingsley Coach wrote on Sat, 01 February 2014 06:48 |
Ken
I never heard that story <g>
What did he do, cut the side out of the oil pan?
Mike
On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 7:25 AM, Ken Burton <n9cv@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> Denny Allen did that once on the road on the way to an Eastern States
> rally. He arrived one day late for the rally.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II
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As I recall, Denny was in Atlanta at his daughter's home. He built a temporary gantry from lumber and raised the engine inside the coach.
Dennis
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Memphis TN Metro
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| Re: [GMCnet] Used motor -- tips and suggestions [message #238348 is a reply to message #238346] |
Sat, 01 February 2014 08:37 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Dennis has it right. I offered him my gantry, but he wouldn't accept,
preferring to just "git 'er done" his own way.
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Dennis Sexton wrote:
>
> Kingsley Coach wrote on Sat, 01 February 2014 06:48
> > Ken
> > I never heard that story <g>
> > What did he do, cut the side out of the oil pan?
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 7:25 AM, Ken Burton <n9cv@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Denny Allen did that once on the road on the way to an Eastern States
> > > rally. He arrived one day late for the rally.
> > > --
> >
> As I recall, Denny was in Atlanta at his daughter's home. He built a
> temporary gantry from lumber and raised the engine inside the coach.
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: Used motor -- tips and suggestions [message #238350 is a reply to message #238300] |
Sat, 01 February 2014 08:44 |
Chris Tyler
Messages: 458
Registered: September 2013
Location: Odessa FL
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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"I can not afford a new motor. I COULD pull a motor from one of my other
> coaches (455), but that doubles the work as I'd have to replace that one."
Can you afford to do it twice? Realizing money is an issue [isn't it always, in one form or another?] I think you would be far ahead in the long run to have the replacement engine gone through while its out, or obtain a replacement with a warranty.
Also: one way or another your current engine has to come out, and once out it can be "autopsied" to see if it is rebuildable. If you holed a piston, you might get lucky if it didnt score the cyl walls...or you might find nothing but teeth, fur and eyeballs in the bottom end.
76 Glenbrook
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| Re: Used motor -- tips and suggestions [message #238362 is a reply to message #238300] |
Sat, 01 February 2014 10:59 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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Mike,
A couple of years ago, Jim Decheine helped out another Saguaro Jetset member by buying a used 403 and installing it in his coach (with his help) You might want to get in touch with Jim and see what all he did to the engine before installing it. (jade at tabletoptelephone dot com).
If I were doing it, I would buy a full gasket set and install all new gaskets, rear and front main seals, plasti-gauge at least a couple of bearings, maybe replace the main and rod bearings with new std bearing shells if questionable, install a new oil pump and clean the pickup. I would also put on a new fuel pump and water pump. It sounds like you will have the engine largely torn down anyway, so it would be easy to do all those things while you are assembling all the parts.
I would also take a close look at the carb and distributor to make sure they are up to snuff. You might also consider installing one of Jim B's "Kryptonite" cams and a set of lifters.
By the way, the used engine Jim put in Bob Frazier's coach worked out well. Unfortunately, Bob has had health issues that have prevented him from using the coach more than one or two times since the engine swap.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: [GMCnet] Used motor -- tips and suggestions [message #238368 is a reply to message #238362] |
Sat, 01 February 2014 11:41 |
Kingsley Coach
Messages: 2691
Registered: March 2009
Location: Nova Scotia Canada
Karma: -34
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Senior Member |
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Netters
I'm confused or forgetful... one or the other.
The topic is getting the oil pan off.
How can you remove an engine oil pan simply by raising the engine off if
its mounts? The final drive/trans combination prevents removal doesn't it ?
I admit it has been probably 10 years since I had either out, but In the
past I have removed the engine once and the tranny twice...oh, and the
final drive 3 or 4 times all in my back yard . My memory says unless the
trans and final drive are dropped, that oil pan isn't coming off.
Mike in NS
On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Carl Stouffer <carljr3b@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Mike
>
> A couple of years ago, Jim Decheine helped out another Saguaro Jetset
> member by buying a used 403 and installing it in his coach (with his help)
> You might want to get in touch with Jim and see what all he did to the
> engine before installing it. (jade at tabletoptelephone dot com).
>
> If I were doing it, I would buy a full gasket set and install all new
> gaskets, rear and front main seals, plasti-gauge at least a couple of
> bearings, maybe replace the main and rod bearings with new std bearing
> shells if questionable, install a new oil pump and clean the pickup. I
> would also put on a new fuel pump and water pump. It sounds like you will
> have the engine largely torn down anyway, so it would be easy to do all
> those things while you are assembling all the parts.
>
> I would also take a close look at the carb and distributor to make sure
> they are up to snuff. You might also consider installing one of Jim B's
> "Kryptonite" cams and a set of lifters.
>
> By the way, the used engine Jim put in Bob Frazier's coach worked out
> well. Unfortunately, Bob has had health issues that have prevented him
> from using the coach more than one or two times since the engine swap.
> --
> Carl S.
> '75 ex Palm Beach
> Tucson, AZ.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS
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| Re: Used motor -- tips and suggestions [message #238373 is a reply to message #238300] |
Sat, 01 February 2014 11:58 |
Ultravan Owners
Messages: 443
Registered: March 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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MTCW as a retired mechanic.
If I could not afford a new or rebuilt engine (I've been there, done that, a few times in my life) and I were to install a “good” used engine,
the following is what I like to do depending on how hard it would be to get to those items once the engine had been installed.
I would replace at least the front and rear main seals.
I would replace the water pump. (Unless I knew for sure it was not that old or easy to get to.)
I would replace old belts and hoses.
I might even replace the oil pump.
But if I saw the oil pan gasket was leaking anyways I would definitely change the pump out while fixing the pan gasket.
(Much more so knowing how hard it would be to get to the oil pan gasket and/or oil pump with the engine installed in a GMC MH.)
I might even replace the timing chain and gears.
Tony (Ontario Canada)
Marie and I are blessed to have had a 2nd chance to buy our farm.
Still hoping and more importantly praying to be able to build a garage.
Our 1970 Ultravan #520 has an Olds Toronado 455 in back.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Used motor -- tips and suggestions [message #238379 is a reply to message #238368] |
Sat, 01 February 2014 12:28 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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| Kingsley Coach wrote on Sat, 01 February 2014 10:41 |
Netters
I'm confused or forgetful... one or the other.
The topic is getting the oil pan off.
How can you remove an engine oil pan simply by raising the engine off if
its mounts? The final drive/trans combination prevents removal doesn't it ?
I admit it has been probably 10 years since I had either out, but In the
past I have removed the engine once and the tranny twice...oh, and the
final drive 3 or 4 times all in my back yard . My memory says unless the
trans and final drive are dropped, that oil pan isn't coming off.
Mike in NS
On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Carl Stouffer <carljr3b@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Mike
>
> A couple of years ago, Jim Decheine helped out another Saguaro Jetset
> member by buying a used 403 and installing it in his coach (with his help)
> You might want to get in touch with Jim and see what all he did to the
> engine before installing it. (jade at tabletoptelephone dot com).
>
> If I were doing it, I would buy a full gasket set and install all new
> gaskets, rear and front main seals, plasti-gauge at least a couple of
> bearings, maybe replace the main and rod bearings with new std bearing
> shells if questionable, install a new oil pump and clean the pickup. I
> would also put on a new fuel pump and water pump. It sounds like you will
> have the engine largely torn down anyway, so it would be easy to do all
> those things while you are assembling all the parts.
>
> I would also take a close look at the carb and distributor to make sure
> they are up to snuff. You might also consider installing one of Jim B's
> "Kryptonite" cams and a set of lifters.
>
> By the way, the used engine Jim put in Bob Frazier's coach worked out
> well. Unfortunately, Bob has had health issues that have prevented him
> from using the coach more than one or two times since the engine swap.
> --
> Carl S.
> '75 ex Palm Beach
> Tucson, AZ.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS
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Michael,
In this case Mike will have the engine out of the coach. He will easily be able to R&R the oil pan. That is why I suggested he check bearings, replace the rear main seal, and replace the oil pump. Tony's suggestion of installing a new timing set is also a good one and must have slipped my mind.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: Used motor -- tips and suggestions [message #238381 is a reply to message #238300] |
Sat, 01 February 2014 12:48 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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Having just gone through an remove, rebuild, and reinstall. If I had a previous good running engine with this symptom, I'd probably try to avoid pulling the engine until I knew it had to come out.
Pull the tranny, pull the axle shaft under the pan, and lift the front of the block enough to drop the oil pan. Check a the bearings and decide if a full rebuild is required. I've done a few in car overhauls before and they all ran for years. Not optimal but neither is taking all the 'stuff' off the engine and getting it out and back in.
If everything looked good, bearings OK, cylinder not scored, I'd be tempted to replace the burnt piston and put it back together if I was on a budget.
If I recall correctly, you can get a warranted J&S engine up in that neck of the woods for $1700. They told me that I could turn in a 403 block for a 455 if I wanted to.
Been there, done that, have the tee shirt on not having the funds to do things but buying a used motor has a high probablity of failure shortly. Even if you decide your motor has to come out, you can get or do a budget refresh pretty cheap and have a known result.
A car 403 is going to have the wrong cam and carb isn't it?
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] Used motor -- tips and suggestions [message #238386 is a reply to message #238323] |
Sat, 01 February 2014 13:02 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Mike, after watching Jim swap the intake and whatnot from the dead Pig motor to the rebuilt engine he performed I would have complete confidence in his abilities to survey and service a motor you have found. The engine I ended up with has been very solid and trouble free.
Todd Sullivan
Sully
77 royale
Seattle
> On Jan 31, 2014, at 10:15 PM, Mike Miller <m000035@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> James Hupy wrote on Fri, 31 January 2014 19:03
>> Mike, stop by on your way to look at it. It is only a few miles from me. I did notice a "smog pump" on the engine, so it is not from a motor home for sure. Perhaps we can go look together.
>> Jim Hupy
>> Salem, Or.
>
>
> Thanks Jim.
>
> Are a football fan? (I am not.) I'd forgotten at the time I set up my "visit" it was on Superbowl Sunday. I have not heard back from the seller on if this bothers him. If it does, I'll slide the date a week or so. It isn't like I do not have other things to do in the meanwhile!
>
> As for the smog pump, I had planned on only using the short block from this motor. So almost everything bolted to the motor will not be used.. by me. I already have rebuilt heads, plus a set of good "core" heads, setting in the motorhome. From talking t the seller, it was in a larger '80's Olds, NOT a Cutlass. Being set up for rear wheel drive, it has the starter mounted to the block, so it should be possible to do a compression check before buying.
>
> The same guy has a 350 olds diesel block listed in another ad. I understand they can be made into a bullet proof gasoline engine. ... hmmmm, JimB has a 350 powered GMC. Have to think about this. ;)
>
> I'll call you tommorrow when I know a little more.
> --
> Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
> (#1)'73 26' exPainted D. -- (#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
> http://m000035.blogspot.com
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Used motor -- tips and suggestions [message #238393 is a reply to message #238386] |
Sat, 01 February 2014 15:23 |
Kingsley Coach
Messages: 2691
Registered: March 2009
Location: Nova Scotia Canada
Karma: -34
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Senior Member |
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Carl
I know what you were saying, but wondering if I missed something with the
others comments... <g>
Mike in NS
On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 3:02 PM, Todd Sullivan <sgltrac@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mike, after watching Jim swap the intake and whatnot from the dead Pig
> motor to the rebuilt engine he performed I would have complete confidence
> in his abilities to survey and service a motor you have found. The engine I
> ended up with has been very solid and trouble free.
>
> Todd Sullivan
>
> Sully
> 77 royale
> Seattle
>
> > On Jan 31, 2014, at 10:15 PM, Mike Miller <m000035@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > James Hupy wrote on Fri, 31 January 2014 19:03
> >> Mike, stop by on your way to look at it. It is only a few miles from
> me. I did notice a "smog pump" on the engine, so it is not from a motor
> home for sure. Perhaps we can go look together.
> >> Jim Hupy
> >> Salem, Or.
> >
> >
> > Thanks Jim.
> >
> > Are a football fan? (I am not.) I'd forgotten at the time I set up my
> "visit" it was on Superbowl Sunday. I have not heard back from the seller
> on if this bothers him. If it does, I'll slide the date a week or so. It
> isn't like I do not have other things to do in the meanwhile!
> >
> > As for the smog pump, I had planned on only using the short block from
> this motor. So almost everything bolted to the motor will not be used.. by
> me. I already have rebuilt heads, plus a set of good "core" heads, setting
> in the motorhome. From talking t the seller, it was in a larger '80's
> Olds, NOT a Cutlass. Being set up for rear wheel drive, it has the starter
> mounted to the block, so it should be possible to do a compression check
> before buying.
> >
> > The same guy has a 350 olds diesel block listed in another ad. I
> understand they can be made into a bullet proof gasoline engine. ... hmmmm,
> JimB has a 350 powered GMC. Have to think about this. ;)
> >
> > I'll call you tommorrow when I know a little more.
> > --
> > Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
> > (#1)'73 26' exPainted D. -- (#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77
> 23' Birchaven Side Bath
> > http://m000035.blogspot.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS
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| Re: Used motor -- tips and suggestions [message #238397 is a reply to message #238300] |
Sat, 01 February 2014 15:39 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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If there is coolant in the oil then you have a lot to consider bearing wise. If not then, with your budget in mind i'd jack it up and cut the ridge and slip a new piston and rings on the old rod and put it back together with new head gaskets. So do as little as possible or redo the whole thing right. When the gasket between 5/7 goes it takes out the edge of the 7 piston where the flame jumps across firing 1/4 turn early. It keeps eating away at it from there. I went through this on a GS400 Buick I got for almost nothing due to same issue. Did as above and it ran flawlessly. Be sure the 7 rod bearing us not hammered out from all this. Mine was not
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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