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| Torsion bar removal PITA [message #235864] |
Sat, 11 January 2014 18:23  |
Bullitthead
Messages: 1411
Registered: November 2013
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Replacing the torsion bar on the passenger side, and have run into a snag. Jacked it up nice and even with 3 jacks (1 each side and one for the front), unloaded the bar and removed the adjuster. Went to push the bar forward to remove it from the pork chop and no go. Tried twisting the bar with pliers and won't move either way. Solid as if it was still stressed. Then storm blew up and rained me out. Now my options are to apply more power to the bar in twisting to free it up and maybe hit the rear through the hole with an air hammer. Is this futile? Do I have to unload the left bar also and remove the cross member to the rear instead of moving the bar to the front? Isn't there enough space in the control arm socket to move the bar forward far enough to disengage it from the pork chop? Rain and darkness has stopped me until tomorrow, so I am hoping the GMCers can give me some good ideas that I haven't thought of yet. Drinks will be on me if I ever make it to a rally!
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Torsion bar removal PITA [message #235873 is a reply to message #235864] |
Sat, 11 January 2014 19:26  |
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Lots of Knocker Loose and an air hammer is the answer. It'll eventually
give up.
Patience and determination
bdub
-----Original Message-----
From: On Behalf Of Terry
Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2014 6:23 PM
Replacing the torsion bar on the passenger side, and have run into a snag.
Jacked it up nice and even with 3 jacks (1 each side and one for the front),
unloaded the bar and removed the adjuster. Went to push the bar forward to
remove it from the pork chop and no go. Tried twisting the bar with pliers
and won't move either way. Solid as if it was still stressed. Then storm
blew up and rained me out. Now my options are to apply more power to the bar
in twisting to free it up and maybe hit the rear through the hole with an
air hammer. Is this futile? Do I have to unload the left bar also and remove
the cross member to the rear instead of moving the bar to the front? Isn't
there enough space in the control arm socket to move the bar forward far
enough to disengage it from the pork chop? Rain and darkness has stopped me
until tomorrow, so I am hoping the GMCers can give me some good ideas that I
haven't thought of yet. Drinks will be on me if I ever make it to a rally!
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bdub
bdub.net
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| Re: [GMCnet] Torsion bar removal PITA [message #235874 is a reply to message #235864] |
Sat, 11 January 2014 19:29 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Terry,
No, there is NOT enough room in the control arm socket to move the torsion
bar forward -- think about it, would you really want the bar to be
unrestrained from longitudinal movement? Let me tell you from experience,
it's exciting when the TB loses its loading -- you're suddenly "looking
straight down at the road" after the LOUD bang. I installed a TB without
making sure it was fully seated in the pork chop and was still able to bolt
the cross member back in place -- until I hit a bump 1000 miles from home.
The fix wasn't difficult since I found a helpful shop owner nearby.
You must unbolt the rear cross member and move it to the rear to free the
torsion bar from the pork chop, then from the front socket. You can
probably do just one side at a time -- the rubber isolator on the other end
will not prevent cocking the cross member enough to clear the TB.
If the TB doesn't want to come out of the forward socket, don't get carried
away with those pliers nor with a pipe wrench -- you do NOT want to scar
the bar, creating "stress risers". Use the pork chop as your wrench if
necessary. IF the forward socket is "blown out", as I had one when
installing the 1-Ton kit, it may be necessary to twist the bar in the
opposite direction from its normal loading. Otherwise, lateral and
vertical "wiggling" of the free end of the TB should loosen the bar from
the socket.
I do not suggest knocking the plug out of the front of the socket because
of the mud, dirt, rust, etc., that will collect there -- not to mention the
aforementioned TB retention. If everything else failed, I'd drill a hole
in the center of that plug to accept a drift punch to drive the TB to the
rear, planning to seal that hole before reassembly. The hex in the socket
should be liberally coated with grease to delay future rusting into place.
On reassembly, notice that there's a hole in the rear of the rear cross
member -- use it to be sure the TB is all the way through the pork chop.
HTH,
Ken H.
On Sat, Jan 11, 2014 at 7:23 PM, Terry wrote:
>
>
> Replacing the torsion bar on the passenger side, and have run into a snag.
> Jacked it up nice and even with 3 jacks (1 each side and one for the
> front), unloaded the bar and removed the adjuster. Went to push the bar
> forward to remove it from the pork chop and no go. Tried twisting the bar
> with pliers and won't move either way. Solid as if it was still stressed.
> Then storm blew up and rained me out. Now my options are to apply more
> power to the bar in twisting to free it up and maybe hit the rear through
> the hole with an air hammer. Is this futile? Do I have to unload the left
> bar also and remove the cross member to the rear instead of moving the bar
> to the front? Isn't there enough space in the control arm socket to move
> the bar forward far enough to disengage it from the pork chop? Rain and
> darkness has stopped me until tomorrow, so I am hoping the GMCers can give
> me some good ideas that I haven't thought of yet. Drinks will be on me if I
> ever make it to a rally!
> --
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Torsion bar removal PITA [message #235912 is a reply to message #235893] |
Sun, 12 January 2014 01:11 |
Bullitthead
Messages: 1411
Registered: November 2013
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Thanks for the heads up Rob, I just got back from being out on errands so I'll look at the manual before I go back out tomorrow. I thought it was just a metal cap on the front that would pop out if I drove the bar out from the rear. Thought I had read that somewhere. Wasn't thinking either of the actual physics of the mass of the bar vs. the mass of any hammer that I could possibly hit it with, especially through that 3/8 hole! Brain disconnected, I guess.
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Torsion bar removal PITA [message #235914 is a reply to message #235912] |
Sun, 12 January 2014 01:29 |
Bullitthead
Messages: 1411
Registered: November 2013
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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And so I see the very first step says" Raise Motor Home on a twin post lift"...which I would never even consider, so maybe that's why I didn't remember those instructions. Selective Memory Block! Same procedure as on many torsion bar suspension designs.
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Torsion bar removal PITA [message #236013 is a reply to message #235914] |
Sun, 12 January 2014 19:51 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
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They come out real easy if you take the lower arm out too. Plus, let's you see how good the bushings really look on the inside. They can look like a pigs ear on the flange visible while installed but usually they be good on the inside. But since you now have the arm out........
Todd Sullivan
Sully
77 royale
Seattle
> On Jan 11, 2014, at 11:29 PM, Terry <mrbullitt@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> And so I see the very first step says" Raise Motor Home on a twin post lift"...which I would never even consider, so maybe that's why I didn't remember those instructions. Selective Memory Block! Same procedure as on many torsion bar suspension designs.
> --
> Terry Kelpien
> 73 Glacier 260
> Smithfield, Va.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Torsion bar removal PITA [message #236056 is a reply to message #236013] |
Mon, 13 January 2014 02:00 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Spray in penetrating oil from both sides and rotate the torsion bar from
the rear in a gyrating mode to free it from the a frame, then grab the back
hex with a large vice grip and pound the vice grip.
On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 5:51 PM, Todd Sullivan <sgltrac@gmail.com> wrote:
> They come out real easy if you take the lower arm out too. Plus, let's you
> see how good the bushings really look on the inside. They can look like a
> pigs ear on the flange visible while installed but usually they be good on
> the inside. But since you now have the arm out........
>
> Todd Sullivan
>
> Sully
> 77 royale
> Seattle
>
> > On Jan 11, 2014, at 11:29 PM, Terry <mrbullitt@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > And so I see the very first step says" Raise Motor Home on a twin post
> lift"...which I would never even consider, so maybe that's why I didn't
> remember those instructions. Selective Memory Block! Same procedure as on
> many torsion bar suspension designs.
> > --
> > Terry Kelpien
> > 73 Glacier 260
> > Smithfield, Va.
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Torsion bar removal PITA [message #236092 is a reply to message #236056] |
Mon, 13 January 2014 16:33 |
Bullitthead
Messages: 1411
Registered: November 2013
Karma: 5
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Nice and greasy up in the control arm, but still worn enough to require untwisting of the bar to remove. I looked for cracks in the socket and found & felt none, so checked out the leftover twist in the bar, and there was some. Actually looked like less leftover twist than the bar I was installing, but I was up on stands with no suspension and I'm not staying that way so I greased up the one I got from Chuck and put it in. Putting the chops back up to the point of installing the adjuster nuts was problematic with the tool that I made, but I got one up there and refined the process for the second bar and was much faster. Used bottle jack to push chop into place far enough to bolt clamping tool at correct angle to be able to turn it up some more. Can only go so far with jack and then it gets dangerous to jack any farther.
Bottom line: Back on the wheels, raised her up just a little bit, and need control arm repair to get full height and proper suspension geometry.
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Torsion bar removal PITA [message #236093 is a reply to message #236092] |
Mon, 13 January 2014 16:39 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Terry,
You can make your life easier by removing the shock and allowing the lower control arm to swing down to about the 5:00 position on
the passenger side and 7:00 on the driver side. Install the torsion bar in the control arm then the pork chop and use a floor jack
to bring the control arm back to where the shock can be reinstalled.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Terry
Nice and greasy up in the control arm, but still worn enough to require untwisting of the bar to remove. I looked for cracks in the
socket and found & felt none, so checked out the leftover twist in the bar, and there was some. Actually looked like less leftover
twist than the bar I was installing, but I was up on stands with no suspension and I'm not staying that way so I greased up the one
I got from Chuck and put it in. Putting the chops back up to the point of installing the adjuster nuts was problematic with the tool
that I made, but I got one up there and refined the process for the second bar and was much faster. Used bottle jack to push chop
into place far enough to bolt clamping tool at correct angle to be able to turn it up some more. Can only go so far with jack and
then it gets dangerous to jack any farther.
Bottom line: Back on the wheels, raised her up just a little bit, and need control arm repair to get full height and proper
suspension geometry.
--
Terry
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Torsion bar removal PITA [message #236096 is a reply to message #236093] |
Mon, 13 January 2014 17:09 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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I have said this before on the GMCnet, and probably I will say it again. DO
NOT RAISE THE COACH with the torsion bar adjustment nut and bolt. You will
strip the threads if you do. You SHOULD USE the torsion bar adjustment tool
that is described in the service manual. I would not put a bottle jack any
where near the end of the pork chop if you are going to put your fingers in
there to adjust the pork chop. I know, they are your fingers, and you can
risk them if you want, But there are many tons of force involved. A tip
that I will pass along is to unload the suspension by using a floor jack
under the control arm, but for your sake please be very careful. You do not
want to raise the frame off the jackstands and have the coach shift and
fall. Be afraid, be very afraid of this stuff. NO SECOND CHANCES.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Robert Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> Terry,
>
> You can make your life easier by removing the shock and allowing the lower
> control arm to swing down to about the 5:00 position on
> the passenger side and 7:00 on the driver side. Install the torsion bar in
> the control arm then the pork chop and use a floor jack
> to bring the control arm back to where the shock can be reinstalled.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry
>
> Nice and greasy up in the control arm, but still worn enough to require
> untwisting of the bar to remove. I looked for cracks in the
> socket and found & felt none, so checked out the leftover twist in the
> bar, and there was some. Actually looked like less leftover
> twist than the bar I was installing, but I was up on stands with no
> suspension and I'm not staying that way so I greased up the one
> I got from Chuck and put it in. Putting the chops back up to the point of
> installing the adjuster nuts was problematic with the tool
> that I made, but I got one up there and refined the process for the second
> bar and was much faster. Used bottle jack to push chop
> into place far enough to bolt clamping tool at correct angle to be able to
> turn it up some more. Can only go so far with jack and
> then it gets dangerous to jack any farther.
>
> Bottom line: Back on the wheels, raised her up just a little bit, and need
> control arm repair to get full height and proper
> suspension geometry.
> --
> Terry
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Torsion bar removal PITA [message #236114 is a reply to message #236096] |
Mon, 13 January 2014 19:31 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Jim,
I agree 100% with what you've written vis-à-vis adjusting the pork chop bolt, however, this has me confused:
A tip that I will pass along is to unload the suspension by using a floor jack under the control arm, but for your sake please be
very careful.
If you put the floor jack under the control arm and lift the coach the torsion bar is still carrying the weight.
How do you do this?
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of James Hupy
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 10:09 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Torsion bar removal PITA
I have said this before on the GMCnet, and probably I will say it again. DO
NOT RAISE THE COACH with the torsion bar adjustment nut and bolt. You will
strip the threads if you do. You SHOULD USE the torsion bar adjustment tool
that is described in the service manual. I would not put a bottle jack any
where near the end of the pork chop if you are going to put your fingers in
there to adjust the pork chop. I know, they are your fingers, and you can
risk them if you want, But there are many tons of force involved. A tip
that I will pass along is to unload the suspension by using a floor jack
under the control arm, but for your sake please be very careful. You do not
want to raise the frame off the jackstands and have the coach shift and
fall. Be afraid, be very afraid of this stuff. NO SECOND CHANCES.
Jim Hupy
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Torsion bar removal PITA [message #236117 is a reply to message #236114] |
Mon, 13 January 2014 19:51 |
Bullitthead
Messages: 1411
Registered: November 2013
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Rob,
I think Jim means to use the jack to unload the shock and then lower the jack to let the control arm down as far as it will go. This would make it easier to get the chop up far enough to get the adjuster nut in place. Would probably still have to use the clamping tool to push the chop up, but it would be less strain and less danger.
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Torsion bar removal PITA [message #236119 is a reply to message #236117] |
Mon, 13 January 2014 20:11 |
Bullitthead
Messages: 1411
Registered: November 2013
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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To all,
Of course I had the coach jacked and supported on the frame with the wheels off the ground for this job. I already knew that the suspension cannot be tweaked while it is under load, and this would be true of any type of vehicle suspension system, not just torsion bars. When I increased the ride height, I used the clamping/pressing tool to twist the bar more while the wheels were hanging. As far as jacking on the control arm, I've seen the jack fly across the shop floor a few times when the other mechanics were releasing the control arms to replace springs and bushings. More dangerous than the way I had the jack on the pork chop, as I always try to imagine what happens "if" in these situations. It hasn't been good luck that keeps me alive in the vehicle repair business all these years...I used that all up decades ago!
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Torsion bar removal PITA [message #236121 is a reply to message #236118] |
Mon, 13 January 2014 20:22 |
Bullitthead
Messages: 1411
Registered: November 2013
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Rob,
I went to use the axle U-bolts that I had leftover but none of them was wide enough to make it around the frame. And they were big U-bolts! The rest of my tool was just the cross bar and press bolt from a bearing puller set. It was a cheap set and doesn't have the bearing in the end of the bolt, but it worked. What did those U-bolts you have come off of? I'm not doing this job again unless I have to, and then I will be upgrading the front end with Manny if I still have any money when I get to California. That will be right before I have to go live in the GMC down by the river, since I don't think you can live by the ocean anymore, like Jim Rockford.
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Torsion bar removal PITA [message #236130 is a reply to message #236121] |
Tue, 14 January 2014 03:44 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Terry,
I may have been mistaken when I said the U-bolts were 9/16" they may have been these 5/8" from NAPA.
Part Number: BK 6504053
Product Line: Balkamp
I'll measure them the next time I'm at my workshop.
If you do a search for U-bolt on: http://www.napaonline.com
You get 949 items!
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Terry
Rob,
I went to use the axle U-bolts that I had leftover but none of them was wide enough to make it around the frame. And they were big
U-bolts! The rest of my tool was just the cross bar and press bolt from a bearing puller set. It was a cheap set and doesn't have
the bearing in the end of the bolt, but it worked. What did those U-bolts you have come off of? I'm not doing this job again unless
I have to, and then I will be upgrading the front end with Manny if I still have any money when I get to California. That will be
right before I have to go live in the GMC down by the river, since I don't think you can live by the ocean anymore, like Jim
Rockford.
--
Terry
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Torsion bar removal PITA [message #236131 is a reply to message #236119] |
Tue, 14 January 2014 03:50 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Terry,
You are 100% correct!
I was super careful when I used the floor jack to lower the control arms. I cleaned the floor and made sure there wasn't any crap on
the steel wheels. I placed the jack perpendicular to the control arm pivot points so that when it went up and down it could roll
towards and away from the frame. Once I removed the shock I turned the handle SUPER SLOWLY and let the arms down very slowly and
gently. When I jacked them back up I went slowly as well.
The bottom line is that is a dangerous thing to do which is why I built the tools.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Terry
To all,
Of course I had the coach jacked and supported on the frame with the wheels off the ground for this job. I already knew that the
suspension cannot be tweaked while it is under load, and this would be true of any type of vehicle suspension system, not just
torsion bars. When I increased the ride height, I used the clamping/pressing tool to twist the bar more while the wheels were
hanging. As far as jacking on the control arm, I've seen the jack fly across the shop floor a few times when the other mechanics
were releasing the control arms to replace springs and bushings. More dangerous than the way I had the jack on the pork chop, as I
always try to imagine what happens "if" in these situations. It hasn't been good luck that keeps me alive in the vehicle repair
business all these years...I used that all up decades ago!
--
Terry
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GMCnet mailing list
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Torsion bar removal PITA [message #236160 is a reply to message #236131] |
Tue, 14 January 2014 11:00 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Rob, I woke up this morning and it occurred to me that I must have a victim
of crainial flatulence yesterday when I posted the comment regarding
jacking the lower control arms higher to decrease tension on the torsion
bars. That will have quite the opposite effect. For all who were led astray
by my comment, what can I say? I was wrong and a victim of my own critical
non thinking error. IN ORDER TO UNLOAD THE TORSION BARS FURTHER, ONE MUST
REMOVE THE UPPER SHOCK MOUNTING FASTENERS, AND ALLOW THE SUSPENSION TO
EXTEND AS FAR AS POSSIBLE. I very seldom remove the torsion bars without
removing the whole lower control arm assemblies, and it is an easy job to
remove the bars when you have the control arms out of the way. But, with
age the grease hardens in the torsion bar sockets and that makes it more
difficult to remove the bars. I spray the heck out of the socket with
either chem tool or brake kleen, or WD-40 or some such stuff to dissolve
and soften the grease. It makes the bars easier to remove. I guess that I
was just fixated on the visual picture that I had in my mind of a bottle
jack under an unsupported pork chop, which it turns out was not even the
case. My bad.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 1:50 AM, Robert Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> Terry,
>
> You are 100% correct!
>
> I was super careful when I used the floor jack to lower the control arms.
> I cleaned the floor and made sure there wasn't any crap on
> the steel wheels. I placed the jack perpendicular to the control arm pivot
> points so that when it went up and down it could roll
> towards and away from the frame. Once I removed the shock I turned the
> handle SUPER SLOWLY and let the arms down very slowly and
> gently. When I jacked them back up I went slowly as well.
>
> The bottom line is that is a dangerous thing to do which is why I built
> the tools.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry
>
> To all,
> Of course I had the coach jacked and supported on the frame with the
> wheels off the ground for this job. I already knew that the
> suspension cannot be tweaked while it is under load, and this would be
> true of any type of vehicle suspension system, not just
> torsion bars. When I increased the ride height, I used the
> clamping/pressing tool to twist the bar more while the wheels were
> hanging. As far as jacking on the control arm, I've seen the jack fly
> across the shop floor a few times when the other mechanics
> were releasing the control arms to replace springs and bushings. More
> dangerous than the way I had the jack on the pork chop, as I
> always try to imagine what happens "if" in these situations. It hasn't
> been good luck that keeps me alive in the vehicle repair
> business all these years...I used that all up decades ago!
> --
> Terry
>
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| Re: Torsion bar removal PITA [message #236173 is a reply to message #235864] |
Tue, 14 January 2014 15:21 |
larry.whisler
Messages: 356
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 8
|
Senior Member |
|
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There is not enough room to move it forward to disengage from the pork chop.
You will either need to unbolt the control arm or the cross member to get the torsion bar out.
larry
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