Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » New garage
| New garage [message #234437] |
Mon, 30 December 2013 08:19  |
Rick Williams
Messages: 256
Registered: July 2004
Karma: 0
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Happy New Year
After 30 years, I have moved. A friend once said if he had to move, he would burn it all down and start over. I should have taken his advice. Boy did I accumulate stuff in 30 years. I had built a pole barn and had a service pit built at my last place. The pit was constructed using poured concrete walls. I have completed the pole barn (42'x56') at my new location but the concrete floor will have to wait until spring. It is -3 F as I write this. I have received quotes for poured wall construction and for block wall construction. Block is a few hundred dollars less. The cores of a block wall will be filled with concrete with rebar. Do any of you have experience with or opinions on poured versus block construction of a pit?
By the way, my new location is 15 miles southwest of Mackinaw City, Michigan on 41 acres near the village of Bliss (a general store, cemetery and a volunteer fire hall). There is room for visitors so if any of you have plans for Michigan this summer, you are welcome here. Thanks in advance for any input.
Rick
Rick Williams
Bliss, Michigan
1978 Eleganza II
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| Re: New garage [message #234440 is a reply to message #234437] |
Mon, 30 December 2013 08:58  |
Ultravan Owners
Messages: 443
Registered: March 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Rick,
I too would like to have a pit. However, I heard, but have not checked for myself, that you can not have a pit in Ontario.
Anyways - my way of thinking would be as follows:
If I were to build it I would want to enjoy it and never have to mess with it again. Thus I would not only build a concrete wall, NO blocks - more chances for leaks.
I would use the styrofoam block wall to also help insulate and styrofoam under the floor.
And even if I did not have the funds for a heating system I would make sure I scraped up the funds for infloor tubing to be installed BEFORE the pour.
Once the pit was done I would then have a PRO use hydraulic concrete as parging on top of the inside styrofoam wall in the pit.
If you have a high water table - put a sump pump pit in one corner of the pit it self with a metal grate over it - for service and safety.
(A corner of the pit you feel most likely that you would not being working near.)
I would also put 3" plastic pipe as close to the pit floor as possible and vent it outside. Use some kind of safe/safety fan to pull/vent the air out - but will not start, catch, or cause a fire due to gas fumes. 
Let ME ADD:
You could make the stairs out of pressure treated wood and place the sump pump pit under it - if you are able to drag the stairs away when needed.
Also just about two weeks ago I had the oil changed in my truck at one of those quick oil change places. I spent a good amount of time looking over their pit. (Hmmm - just thought - IF they can have them why not us?1?) Anyways I looked over how they kept their pits covered and safe. It was a simple but cool design. They had metal grates made with square tubing on the outside edges that have (like a male and female) edge to them. One end curved up while the other end of the next grate curved down - so you can lift and slide the small metal grate over the other one once you are down in the pit. I like the design.
Tony (Ontario Canada)
Marie and I are blessed to have had a 2nd chance to buy our farm.
Still hoping and more importantly praying to be able to build a garage.
Our 1970 Ultravan #520 has an Olds Toronado 455 in back.
[Updated on: Wed, 01 January 2014 14:35] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: New garage [message #234491 is a reply to message #234479] |
Mon, 30 December 2013 18:57 |
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Richard RV
Messages: 631
Registered: July 2012
Location: Full-timer for 12 years, ...
Karma: -17
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| Ken Burton wrote on Mon, 30 December 2013 16:56 |
Build the pit BEFORE pouring the concrete floor. Fill the pit with sand. Pour the concrete floor. Next year after inspection, concrete saw the floor over the pit and remove the sand. you will have plenty of sand available for a future sand box.
Years from now no one, will know the difference.
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You are a devious man, Ken, and totally brilliant! The timing of the inspections would have to be taken into account. Some AHJs require inspections for the excavation, footings and framing. I don't know of any that require a pre-pour slab inspection. Regardless, it's doable.
Richard
'77 Birchaven TZE...777;
'76 Palm Beach under construction;
‘76 Edgemont waiting its turn
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| Re: [GMCnet] New garage [message #234494 is a reply to message #234491] |
Mon, 30 December 2013 19:06 |
Ronald Pottol
Messages: 505
Registered: September 2012
Location: Redwood City, California
Karma: -2
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Senior Member |
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or, call it a lap pool!
On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 4:57 PM, Richard <GMC77Birchaven@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ken Burton wrote on Mon, 30 December 2013 16:56
> > Build the pit BEFORE pouring the concrete floor. Fill the pit with
> sand. Pour the concrete floor. Next year after inspection, concrete saw
> the floor over the pit and remove the sand. you will have plenty of sand
> available for a future sand box.
> >
> > Years from now no one, will know the difference.
>
>
> You are a devious man, Ken, and totally brilliant! The timing of the
> inspections would have to be taken into account. Some AHJs require
> inspections for the excavation, footings and framing. I don't know of any
> that require a pre-pour slab inspection. Regardless, it's doable.
>
> Richard
> --
> '77 Birchaven TZE...777
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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Plato seems wrong to me today.
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1973 26' GM outfitted
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| Re: New garage [message #234496 is a reply to message #234437] |
Mon, 30 December 2013 19:18 |
Steve
Messages: 506
Registered: September 2013
Location: East Greenville, Pa
Karma: 1
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What would be the ideal size for a pit?
I am assuming the width would be limited to the width of the front wheels? What length of pit would be ideal?
1978 GMC Royal
Eastern Pennslyvania
1968 Chevrolet C20 396 Camper Special
1969 Chevrolet C20 Camper Special
1985 Buick Electra Park Avenue
1992 Camaro 25th Anniversary Heretage Edition Black
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| Re: [GMCnet] New garage [message #234532 is a reply to message #234440] |
Tue, 31 December 2013 00:26 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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How about a ramp like I've got? Seems to me that eliminates most of the
hazards (gas trapping, etc) that lead to pit prohibition. Now that I've
used mine for 5+ years, I wouldn't even consider an "in the ground" pit.
Of course, to make it feasible, the site must have a slope -- if I had to,
I'd probably make a slope. :-)
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/new-service-rack-amp-drivetrain/p10327.html
There have been some minor changes since that was made, but the concept is
great.
This and following show the changes from above:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/ken-s-shop-amp-grease-rack/p14939.html
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 9:58 AM, Tony <Ultravanman248@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Rick,
>
> I too would like to have a pit. However, I heard, but have not checked for
> myself, that you can not have a pit in Ontario.
>
> Anyways - my way of thinking would be as follows:
> If I were to build it I would want to enjoy it and never have to mess with
> it again. Thus I would not only build a concrete wall, NO blocks - more
> chances for leaks.
> I would use the styrofoam block wall to also help insulate and styrofoam
> under the floor.
> And even if I did not have the funds for a heating system I would make
> sure I scraped up the funds for infloor tubing to be installed BEFORE the
> pour.
>
> Once the pit was done I would then have a PRO use hydraulic concrete as
> parging on top of the inside styrofoam wall in the pit.
>
> If you have a high water table - put a sump pump pit in one corner of the
> pit it self with a metal grate over it - for service and safety.
> (A corner of the pit you feel most likely that you would not being working
> near.)
>
> I would also put 3" plastic pipe as close to the pit floor as possible and
> vent it outside. Use some kind of safe/safety fan to pull/vent the air out
> - but will not start, catch, or cause a fire due to gas fumes. :d
> --
> Tony Ontario Canada 70 Ultravan #520 with an Olds Toronado 455 under the
> bed, in back. Like to have a 78 GMC, twin beds in back, one couch up
> front. If you have one that is on the road & you're willing to sell it -
> let us know.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: New garage [message #234541 is a reply to message #234491] |
Tue, 31 December 2013 03:49 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Richard, Inspectors come in all flavors. Most are almost useless. They have a check list and go down and they are done unless you are in Chicago. There it is how much you pay the inspector that determines if you pass.
I have a good friend that called me to trench in a new water line at his brother's 100 year old house. The city demanded that the new line must be installed in copper. They only see it at the water meter end which is underground at the street between the sidewalk and the curb. Copper is expensive these days and we wanted to do it in plastic. So we got 5 or 6 feet of copper and about 100 feet of plastic. I trenched the line to the sidewalk where we spiced in to about 6 feet of copper to attach to the meter. I filled in the trench line with my tractor and he called for an inspection. The inspector looked in the hole and saw copper and that was it. We passed.
Now if Robin's HOA guy or Rob Mueller was around we would have been in real trouble.
Where there is a will there is a way. As I use to tell my IBM students "the best IBMer is one who figures out the simplest way to fix the problem". The book is only some engineers ideas and not real world application.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: New garage [message #234543 is a reply to message #234437] |
Tue, 31 December 2013 06:07 |
Steve
Messages: 506
Registered: September 2013
Location: East Greenville, Pa
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
I think you have the right idea. If you have slope, or can create slope, the ramps seem like a simple and logical solution.
My property has the right slope angle but it slopes the wrong way. From the street it is all up hill. I think my best solution is likely a four post lift. I had a chance to buy one cheap about 8 years ago and I was foolish and passed on it. It was from an old GM dealer that went under during the financial crisis. I did buy a two post lift but wish I could go back and buy the 18,000 pound capasity four post as well. I did spec the concrete in my shop to handle it.
I am meeting with our local zoning and building officer today to review plans to expand the shop to better accommodate the GMC. They are pretty reasonable where I live.
1978 GMC Royal
Eastern Pennslyvania
1968 Chevrolet C20 396 Camper Special
1969 Chevrolet C20 Camper Special
1985 Buick Electra Park Avenue
1992 Camaro 25th Anniversary Heretage Edition Black
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| Re: [GMCnet] New garage [message #234544 is a reply to message #234532] |
Tue, 31 December 2013 06:19 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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really nice job
is number 235 on my list
but will get done in florence, or
thanks
gene
On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Ken Henderson <hend4800@bellsouth.net>wrote:
> How about a ramp like I've got? Seems to me that eliminates most of the
> hazards (gas trapping, etc) that lead to pit prohibition. Now that I've
> used mine for 5+ years, I wouldn't even consider an "in the ground" pit.
> Of course, to make it feasible, the site must have a slope -- if I had to,
> I'd probably make a slope. :-)
>
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/new-service-rack-amp-drivetrain/p10327.html
> There have been some minor changes since that was made, but the concept is
> great.
>
> This and following show the changes from above:
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/ken-s-shop-amp-grease-rack/p14939.html
>
>
> Ken H.
> Americus, GA
> '76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL
> www.gmcwipersetc.com
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 9:58 AM, Tony <Ultravanman248@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Rick,
> >
> > I too would like to have a pit. However, I heard, but have not checked
> for
> > myself, that you can not have a pit in Ontario.
> >
> > Anyways - my way of thinking would be as follows:
> > If I were to build it I would want to enjoy it and never have to mess
> with
> > it again. Thus I would not only build a concrete wall, NO blocks - more
> > chances for leaks.
> > I would use the styrofoam block wall to also help insulate and styrofoam
> > under the floor.
> > And even if I did not have the funds for a heating system I would make
> > sure I scraped up the funds for infloor tubing to be installed BEFORE the
> > pour.
> >
> > Once the pit was done I would then have a PRO use hydraulic concrete as
> > parging on top of the inside styrofoam wall in the pit.
> >
> > If you have a high water table - put a sump pump pit in one corner of the
> > pit it self with a metal grate over it - for service and safety.
> > (A corner of the pit you feel most likely that you would not being
> working
> > near.)
> >
> > I would also put 3" plastic pipe as close to the pit floor as possible
> and
> > vent it outside. Use some kind of safe/safety fan to pull/vent the air
> out
> > - but will not start, catch, or cause a fire due to gas fumes. :d
> > --
> > Tony Ontario Canada 70 Ultravan #520 with an Olds Toronado 455 under
> the
> > bed, in back. Like to have a 78 GMC, twin beds in back, one couch up
> > front. If you have one that is on the road & you're willing to sell it -
> > let us know.
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] New garage [message #234547 is a reply to message #234544] |
Tue, 31 December 2013 07:04 |
tphipps
Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Having seen Ken maneuver in his ramp, on his "office" chair, and having my coach on both his ramps and JohnR's pit, they both do the job well. Ken's is the one that I would copy.
But, you have to love the view from JohnR's pit. It is open towards the bay his house is sited on. JohnR uses heavy lumber to cover his pit, when the GMC is not over it. He put an open channel the the wood rests in.
I am fortunate to have friends such as Ken and JohnR. Without my GMC buddies, I could not own one.
Tom, MS II.
On to Alabama
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG
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| Re: [GMCnet] New garage [message #234552 is a reply to message #234541] |
Tue, 31 December 2013 08:02 |
scott cowden
Messages: 170
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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> 'Richard, Inspectors come in all flavors. Most are almost useless.' 'So we got 5 or 6 feet of copper and about 100 feet of plastic.'
Ken;
One of the great things about the GMCNet is the broad range of people who regularly contribute. Everything from farmers to NASA engineers, computer scientists, businessmen, mechanics and, as it turns out, at least one Inspector. That would be me......
Just curious, when you replaced the metallic water line with plastic and 'outsmarted,' the inspector, did you also outsmart the Electrical inspector when you removed the grounding source for the buldings' electrical system?
In the vast majority of buildings, the water supply line serves double duty as the 'ground,' for the buildings electrical elements. it's called ground for a reason in that electricity literally runs to the ground. Many of you will notice the copper wire clamped to the copper or metal water line where it enters the house. That wire goes to the main electrical panel for the building.
When the inspector saw the copper inside the building leading outside, he would have invariably checked to see the ground line clamped to the copper pipe to ensure the building was grounded. 5 feet of copper line starting inside the house is not near enough metal to properly ground a house sized electrical system. He had no way of knowing it had been, 'shortchanged.'
If the building isn't grounded using the water line that runs underground all the way to the street, a grounding plate with a minimum surface area or a grounding rod with similar surface area requirements is needed or there will not be a 'ground,' within the house. For an average 100 amp service residential electrical service, a ground plate minimum dim. of 24 inches square, minimum 2 ft below grade or an 8 ft ground rod are required. a bigger service=a bigger ground source.
Was a ground rod or plate installed? I'll bet it wasn't.
Unless the whole house as a system was in the plan when the one system was modified outside of Code, the result may be that another major system is unsafe and may actually cause injury and damage. That is likely the reason that metallic water line is required unless there is proof that grounding is properly in place.
I'm resisting the temptation to poke a finger back in the eye of a detractor here, but geez, in reality most people aren't out to screw you over just because one might not completely understand why a requirement is in place. I agree that some Inspectors use a, 'one solution,' method when inspecting. in a high percentage of installations that solution may be the most expedient one. But there's always more than one option available and most Codes recognize this.
Generally speaking, I read your posts with interest as I have respect for your opinions and expertise. This one, however, got a bit under my skin.
Scott
'74 x-Glacier
Newmarket ON
www.inspectmyplace.ca
>
Sent from my iPad
On 2013-12-31, at 4:49 AM, "Ken Burton" <n9cv@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> They have a check list and go down and they are done unless you are in Chicago. There it is how much you pay the inspector that determines if you pass.
>
> I have a good friend that called me to trench in a new water line at his brother's 100 year old house. The city demanded that the new line must be installed in copper. They only see it at the water meter end which is underground at the street between the sidewalk and the curb. Copper is expensive these days and we wanted to do it in plastic. I trenched the line to the sidewalk where we spiced in to about 6 feet of copper to attach to the meter. I filled in the trench line with my tractor and he called for an inspection. The inspector looked in the hole and saw copper and that was it. We passed.
>
> Now if Robin's HOA guy or Rob Mueller was around we would have been in real trouble.
>
> Where there is a will there is a way. As I use to tell my IBM students "the best IBMer is one who figures out the simplest way to fix the problem". The book is only some engineers ideas and not real world application.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] New garage [message #234553 is a reply to message #234536] |
Tue, 31 December 2013 08:02 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Peter,
No, the difference in height between the upper and lower levels is just
under 4' -- as prescribed by the terrain. And I sure am glad! I now work
sitting down -- a vast improvement for a 76 yo. My pneumatically raised
work stool means my arms can be 8"-10" "longer" when needed. When I need
the coach raised above the ramps (to R&R tires, etc), I have one of the
tall OEM jacks mounted on a pedestal welded into an old 16.5" rim -- works
great. When changing engines, transmissions, etc, the hoists have to
operate for less distance than if the height were greater (the two hoists I
have would not reach).
Having access to the outsides of the ramps means I can do wheel-related
work at just above waist height instead of at my shins or above my head.
No, I would not consider an walk-under rack any more than I would an
uncovered grave pit.
Ken H.
On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 1:54 AM, Peter Bailey <bugeye@internode.on.net>wrote:
>
>
> Ken,
> Can you stand upright under the coach where the ramps are?
> I was going to do a similar set up but would have to be on my knees to
> work under the coach and a friend (who has an excavator) said I would be
> sorry if I could not stand under it.
> He came around and excavated enough so that I can actually walk under the
> coach and I am so glad he suggested it and that he did the excavating plus
> more work. My set up now gets used by friends with SOB so all is well. My
> land sloped also but I have put a drain in the section excavated lower than
> the normal level of the land.
> Peter Bailey
> from Ozy (Aussie)
> _______________________________________________
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: New garage [message #234560 is a reply to message #234437] |
Tue, 31 December 2013 09:05 |
Chr$
Messages: 2690
Registered: January 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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umm... Exhaust fan?
(Explosion proof motor, of course)
So that is why Pits are against code in some places? Fumes?
The lap pool idea makes sense. Build it, fill it, then drain it!
As for fooling inspectors, it happens all the time. Production homes are filled with crap like that, like vapor barrier only a foot high to stick out under the wallboard. I was an electrician in my early 20's and couldn't believe the shit I saw people do. We did have a ground bond in the slab, however, we pounded a Cu rod into the soil and ran a Cu wire in the foundation walls. Using the water main is not good practice, and I think NEC has required the rod since at least 1984, probably earlier.
For a city to require Cu Pipe all the way to the house is unusual, and not a good idea. Plastic is much better. My 1968 built home has plastic main water line from the meter. Most homes here in AZ now have 100% plastic plumbing, be it CPVC or now PEX, Cu is an upgrade.
I'd love to have a Pit at my place.
-Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
Scottsdale, AZ
77 Ex-Kingsley 455 SOLD!
2010 Nomad 24 Ft TT 390W PV W/MPPT, EV4010 and custom cargo door.
Photosite: Chrisc GMC:"It has Begun" TT: "The Other Woman"
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| Re: [GMCnet] New garage [message #234569 is a reply to message #234536] |
Tue, 31 December 2013 10:35 |
rjw
Messages: 697
Registered: September 2005
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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| peter bailey wrote on Tue, 31 December 2013 01:54 |
Ken,
Can you stand upright under the coach where the ramps are?
I was going to do a similar set up but would have to be on my knees to work under the coach and a friend (who has an excavator) said I would be sorry if I could not stand under it.
He came around and excavated enough so that I can actually walk under the coach and I am so glad he suggested it and that he did the excavating plus more work. My set up now gets used by friends with SOB so all is well. My land sloped also but I have put a drain in the section excavated lower than the normal level of the land.
Peter Bailey
from Ozy (Aussie)
|
I'm not Ken, but I have access to my neighbor's (we built it for his GMC before I had a GMC) ramp. I do most of my maintenance there, including an engine/transmission swap. If his grandson moves (current owner) I would build my own ramp. I can stand up under it with the GMC, with cars I can't, but its better than laying on my back on a creeper.
http://www.palmbeachgmc.com/gmc/gmc_images/ramp8.jpg
Richard
76 Palm Beach
SE Michigan
www.PalmBeachGMC.com
Roller Cam 455, TBI+EBL, 3.42 FD, 4 Bag, Macerator, Lenzi (brakes, vacuum system, front end stuff), Manny Tranny, vacuum step, Tankless + OEM water heaters.
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